What I am pointing out also goes to why you Obama cultists are so clueless. You all do not understand America, or the American electorate. You elitists long for this country to be something that (hopefully) it will never be. You don’t understand the majority of “gun-loving, bitter, religious, stupid people†that must be won over in order to be elected to lead them. You just do not get it. You all are so smart you’re stupid. You live in these bubbles where your views are continually reinforced, so much so you start to believe they are mainstream.
The problem with this point, Micadelic, is that it is really 50/50 in this country, as we saw in the last couple of elections. I agree, there are many people who disagree with me. There are also many, many people who agree with me.
I am wondering about the word “elitist”. I think your average gun-loving, pro-life, fag-hating redneck is wrong about a lot of things. That is not to say they are bad people, they are not, and I know and love many a gun-loving, pro-life, fag-hating redneck. But I argue with them and I argue based on thinking. I admit it! I base my arguments on thinking. I try to gather facts and information and think about all sides of an issue. Then I try to use my best judgment, based on balancing my principles with what I think is practical and achievable.
Let’s use guns as an example, the data is in and the US has more guns deaths, by far, than any other westernized country. The US also has the most gun proliferation in the westernized world. Prior to discussing what our policy should be, you have to be an idiot if you don’t see causation between the vast proliferation of guns in the US and the vastly higher incidents of gun deaths.
I’m not anti-gun. I have no desire to deprive rednecks of their guns. But the streets of Minneapolis are very different from the farms of northern Minnesota. Cops are in grave danger every day due to the proliferation of guns. Do you think we can take that into account when we debate gun policy? Am I an “elitist” because I think that, yes, god dammit, we have to be able to debate gun policy?
The 50% of the people you are supporting in the above paragraph think that gun policy should be off the table. They hated the Brady Bill and they’ve worked to thwart any effort to debate gun policy. They are wrong and I’m not going to pander to them to get their vote.
If you think gun policy should be off the table, that doctors should be thrown in jail for performing abortions and that gay people should be denied spousal rights and benefits, you’re wrong. I can’t care if you have a majority or not, you’re wrong. A majority of people were in favor of slavery, too. Populism can be just as bad, or worse, than elitism.
I think smart, educated and well-informed people should run this country. I think ignorant, uneducated and uninformed people should not. Do you disagree? One could argue that “smart, educated and well-informed” constitutes an elite. If so, I’m an elitist.
lolife 
dood. you have got to put something in place on this blog where i can preview my posts and edit html.
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Great, can we start here?
On May 22nd appearing on Meet the Press, Howard Dean said the following:
Sorry, I had a response to this but I lost it somewhere along the line. I’m going to post about this soon and we can pick it back up.
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Yes. So let’s have a meaningful, respectful and productive debate.
The elitists, and the rednecks, are the 20% on each side of the spectrum. The other 60% are the people like you and me, where there is very little that actually separates us. We all want the same things, we just disagree on how to get there.
It’s when we try to villainize each other that it all breaks down.
How about us smart, informed, intelleigent folks figure out how to solve problems, instead of beating each other about the head and sholders over semantics and misperceptions.
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But you said:
Yes, I agree, it is a continuum but you called me an elitist (one side) who doesn’t understand the other side. Gore and Kerry barely lost. So apparently there are a lot of elitists like me. About half.
It’s actually a very interesting topic that deserves more debate — that of elitism vs. populism. I think it’s perhaps another false debate because the Right are elitists when convenient and populists when convenient. So are the Left.
I don’t know a gay couple who isn’t perfectly happy with civil unions. What they want are the rights and privileges, not the words.
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For example, a person might be against “gay marriage” and not be “fag-hating.” I think gays should be able to enter into civil unions with all the same types of rights and benefits as married people. I actually object to using the term “marriage.” Words do actually mean something to me and a marriage is different then a committed gay relationship. I have absolutely nothing against gays. Honestly, some of my very best friends are gay. I just think a marriage between a man and a woman, with the intent of building a family, has a special place in society.
I think this is one of my main problems with liberalism. “The same” does not mean “equal.” Men and women are not the same, but they are equal. Gays and straights are not the same, but they are equal. A committed gay relationship is not the same as marriage, but they should be equal.
I am glad that when I applied for a marriage license it said “husband” and “wife.” In California they are trying to change it to “Partner A” and Partner B.” I don’t want to be “Partner A” or Partner B,” I want to be the husband, the man. My wife is the “wife,” the woman. We are different but equal.
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This premise…
“The problem with this point, Micadelic, is that it is really 50/50 in this country”
Which sounds an awful lot like you’re either one or the other. It’s a spectrum of opinions, not black/white, etc.
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Micadelic, you seem to be taking my post to imply that I am saying that you are a “gun-loving, pro-life, fag-hating redneck”. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that those people are wrong on those specific issues and that I’m not convinced they’ve looked at the whole issue. They are the myopic ones in this debate. I am more than wiling to acknowledge the many-sided aspects of these things.
I don’t even know which premise you are rejecting. The one that smart, educated and well-informed people should run this country?
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Here is the fatal flaw with your argument and frankly the part that kind of pisses me off. It’s not 50/50, black and white, your either one or the other. It’s a continuum Michael.
Because I voted for Bush it the last election doesn’t make me stupid, or uneducated, or ill-informed. I also don’t think that all people who voted for Kerry are either. I think there are a bunch of folks in each camp that are stupid, ill-informed, etc.
Also, because I will NEVER vote for someone like Obama doesn’t make me a stupid, fag-hating, gun-loving redneck either. There are plenty of really, really smart people that oppose your views and your refusal to recognize that is disturbing to me.
Your view IMHO is so myopic, you are so convinced of the righteousness of your side that everyone who doesn’t agree is stupid and ill-informed.
So I reject your premise out of hand and I find it offensive actually.
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I agree with your basic argument 100%.
The Gun issue is tricky because of the Constitution. IMHO we have to be able to discuss and find a logical common ground. (as you stated downtown mpls is quite different than life on the iron range)
I don’t consider myself a “gun enthusiast” or even a “gun person” even though I have five handguns and four long guns, and belong to a gun club…..wait, I guess I am a gun person?! at any rate…. yes, we, as Americans, kill each other with guns at an amazing level. Gun issues should be ‘brought’ to the table by both sides.
and as long as I am here, let me weigh in on the other issues.
Abortion is wrong. Abortion is a sin. Abortion should be legal and safe. It is your business not mine.
Gay Marriage. (and I have done a 180 on this issue in my short 47 years) have at it….I believe a Gay ‘union/ marriage’ should have all the rights and benefits that my marriage has. Do I agree that homosexuality follows ‘natural design’? …no I don’t…but again, it is none of my business…
I look forward to this election. I believe that we have candidates, on both sides, that have a level of intellect that we have not experienced in the White House in 7.5 years.
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