How can they say that perjury and obstruction of justice are technicalities when, during the Lewinsky affair, they declared that “perjury and obstruction of justice are high crimes and misdemeanours†(Senator Bill Frist) and that “perjury and obstruction of justice are crimes against the state†(Senator Sam Brownback)?
The fucking Republicans impeached Clinton for the same offense that Scooter Libby committed.
So which is it, guys? No big deal or an impeachable offense?
Bush is protecting the perhaps criminal actions of his administration. No big deal.
lolife 
I have to agree…if Bush were a democrat he would have already been impeached…..it is time for all rational people to stand up and say “no fucking more”..and I am most ashamed of the right….for some strange reason I actually have thought they have a moral and ethical integrity of “self correction”……
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As opposed to the much more dangerous condition where NO MATTER WHAT BUSH DOES THE RIGHT DEFENDS HIM.
Illegal wiretaps? No problem. Not in executive branch? No problem. Lie to us repeatedly? No problem. Incompetent handling of a war costing trillions and hundreds of thousands of lives? No problem. Support torture? No problem.
This administration sucks. They suck big time and they can no longer be defended by any rational person. They should both be impeached and thrown out of office.
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as i learned from the other thread. your right, i’m wrong. no sense hanging out here any longer.
peace out
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Not the Hurricane…just the aftermath.
Not the entire worlds problems….but give him time.
Glad to see you admit the election was stolen…it’s about time.
I think I throw the “bullshit flag” on the left quite a bit…I did when Clinton was president…plenty of fuckups then….
plenty right now…he gets the blame…
next president fucks up…he/she gets the blame also…..
you have to admit that the right uses “yeah, but Clinton did this or that” waaaaay more often than the left ‘touts’ his accomplishments…
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bush derangement syndrome
the absolute distaste and hatred for george bush so much so that you view him and his cohorts as the beginning and end of all the world’s problems. if a hurricane hits new orleans, it’s bush’s fault. if a child catches a cold in watts, it’s bush’s fault, if the price of a barrel of oil or a gallon of gas goes up, it’s bush’s fault, if someone loses their job, it’s bush’s fault, if a tsunami hits indonesia, it’s bush’s fault. all would be right with the world if john kerry or al gore would have won one of the elections that george bush and his evil minions stole out from under them.
it’s a convenient excuse but it has become so tiresome and pathetic it’s comical. how many years are going to go by before george bush is no longer the scapegoat for all the worlds evils? if a democrat gets elected president in 2008 and things don’t go well, gwb will still be blamed by you guys forever.
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What is BDS syndrome…I think you spelled it out but I did forget….
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I’m sure he will and he should.
BDS symptom.
Another BDS symptom.
What about the “fuck-ups” of the Clinton admin? If they wouldn’t have fucked shit up so much we might have never had to face 9/11. It’s so easy to point fingers and assign blame after the fact. What I mean by your BDS is that Bush is just a man, he has made mistakes, he’s a freaking moron on some shit but he’s not some evil monster like you guys try to make him out to be. I believe he’s just a man doing what he thinks is right. Being President is incredibly difficult and you have to make decisions. Give the guy a fucking break.
Amen to that. As I have been saying for months and months, both sides are totally fucked up. I have equal disdain for folks like Lindsay Graham, Trent Lott, and even Bush as I do for Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and Chuck Shumer. IMHO they are all different sides of the same fucked up coin, but they’re all just fallible humans.
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I will bet one beverage of choice that Bush Pardons Libby on his way out of office.
He is protecting himself….There is much about this administration that will come out in the coming years. IMHO History will not be kind to GW…..
The next administration (whichever party) has an incredible mess to try and clean up….
I do think that all three of us can agree that the US has had a significant number of “fuck-ups” during this admin…..
and sad to say the majority of the public just can not give a shit anymore….they are appalled at Washington and how out of touch they are with reality (both sides)….
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So far. That number is going to change a lot in the end of his term here.
I think bsherwood said it right: Bush is protecting the corruption of his own office. That is what is so appalling about this.
What Clinton did is relevant in a political debate, not in a legal one. I’m happy to debate either. But my point is that offenses important enough to impeach a sitting President over are certainly important enough for the legal system to handle without interference from the executive branch.
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As for pardons by Mr. Clinton, it appears that a $450,000 contribution to his prsidential library was sufficient reason to receive a one. Just ask Marc Rich.
Also, if my memory serves, Hillary’s brothers made a little cottage industry selling pardons by their brother-in-law.
I’m just saying that arguing about pardons at this point is going to be tough for you all. Score to date…
Bush – 0 pardons, 1 commutation
Clinton – 140 pardons, many commutations
It is within the presidents right to issue pardons and commutations. I think what he did with Libby was fair. Libby was not pardoned, he had an unreasonable jail sentence commuted. The punishment for Libby fits the crime (insomuch as there was a crime). Our whole system works using a principal called judicial discretion. The prosecution of Libby was ridiculous, overdone, overwrought, and a waste of taxpayer money. The same can be said of Clinton, that prosecution was overdone, over-wrought and a waste of taxpayer money. I’m just saying that 20 months of jail time for what Libby did is a miscarriage of justice and Bush corrected it.
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ok let me un-cloud and see if I can get this figured out.
Libby was convicted for perjury? correct?
Bush commuted his sentence? correct?
I think that is wrong.
You can think whatever you like. I happen to believe that when you raise your right hand and swear to tell the truth…that you actually should tell the truth…
I had a problem when Clinton pardoned Rich..I thought that was wrong. I am guessing that maybe you (Mic) thought that was wrong? If so, you have flip flopped your morals to follow party lines?…or is it a measure of the guilt? (ie….excessive sentence for this crime)
I am not trying to be a prick here..I just don’t know how anyone can think this is an “ok” thing to do…Why not let Libby sit in the can for a bit while he waits for his appeal?
You (Mic) are obviously well read on the subject and without a doubt more knowledgeable than I.
But why the double standard of outrage (if, indeed you were upset with Clintons pardons) and I use the “you” as “the right”
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bsherwood, you obviously don’t even know (or care to know) the facts in the case. Your BDS is so severe it has clouded your ability to reason.
If a CIA agent was “outed,” and it’s such a serious crime, then why in the hell is the person that everybody agrees is the one that “outed” her not only not in jail but was NEVER EVEN FUCKING PROSECUTED?
It wasn’t Cheney, it wasn’t Libby, it was Jack Armitage. There isn’t even any debate between anyone about who leaked the info. How is Cheney guilty exactly, and guilty of what? Dude, get your facts straight.
If Libby is guilty of anything, he is guilty of lying to the grand jury about the facts of a conversation between he and Tim Russert about who he thought the person was that outed her.
And guys, just because you say someone is guilty, or a crime has been committed, does not make it so, The law that governs this type of situation (the 1982 Agent Identities Protection Act) was co-written by a woman named Victoria Toensing and even she says that Valerie Plame was not fucking covered by this law. So, at the very least, there is debate over whether or not anybody, anywhere, even committed any crime. Please read this article written by Toensing herself. And yes, it’s on a conservative site but your not going to get anything like this published in the NYT for God’s sake.
And if releasing confidential information is such a heinous crime in your eyes, why aren’t you up in arms about the various acts of treason comitted by the New York Times? It’s a might fine line your attempting to draw here boys.
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Who appointed the judge that passed sentence on Libby?, and the prosecutor? …and a jury of Americans.
Libby was found Guilty of perjury. Granted the real criminal is Cheney and he should be the one getting commuted.
A CIA agent was “outed”. If you or I did this it would be treason. If you or I perjured ourselves in front of a grand jury we would be in jail.
If it is wrong to Lie under oath then this is about as sleezy as sleezy gets…
I am actually surprised that our friends on the right can not stand up and condemn this act…
I had no problem condemning Clintons act of perjury…he was disbarred if I remember correctly?
We have men and women who have taken an oath, to serve this country, dieing on foreign soil..and this stain (libby) on humanity walks free..
I don’t buy that the sentence was excessive. We are at war, a CIA agent was outed…if we reverse all party alliances I can not believe the republicans would be screaming bloody frickin murder…
I also can not believe you are comparing Libby to Clinton…the offenses are not in the same ballpark (true, lieing under oath is lieing under oath)…
Right is Right
wrong is wrong
He Lied
He is guilty of a serious crime.
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Dude, what do you want? He lost his job, was publicly disgraced, was fined $250k, recieved 2 years probation, and ran up about $4 million in legal fees.
Clinton was publicly disgraced, was impeached by the congress (which is the equivalent of an indictment) but he wasn’t sentenced to 20 months and received no probation. And as I recall, he got to remain President of the United States of America.
So please explain to me how Libby got off easy compared to Clinton? With the commutation of Libby’s sentence, the punishments seem pretty equivalent.
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Um, fellas, Bush did not pardon him, he commuted his outrageously excessive sentence. He still gets a $250k fine plus 2 years probation which is an appropriate sentence for the alleged offense. Even level-headed liberals agree that the jail sentence imposed for this was excessive.
The special prosecutor in this case went head-hunting to see what kind of trophy he could get from the Bush administration and after millions of dollars and thousands of hours, they get one guy who’s only crime is that his recollection of a telephone conversation differs from that of Tim Russert’s. And the supposed “crime” that he was supposedly covering up was never even prosecuted. Why didn’t Fitzgerald go after the actual leaker, Jack Armitage? It’s either because they realize no actual crime was committed (i.e. Valerie Plame wasn’t a covert agent) or that Armitage wasn’t a big enough trophy for them. So which is it?. I would have been extremely disappointed in Bush if he would have allowed his friend to serve so much time in prison for such a questionable offense. Bush didn’t pardon him to protect himself or anybody, I have no clue what you are even implying with that statement.
Now, if you think that 20 months in prison is appropriate, then you really do suffer from advanced BDS.
Just to be clear, I have come over to your side in believing that GWB is a complete and utter moron, albeit for different reasons, but in this case I think he did the right thing.
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clinton did not pardon anyone to protect himself. Bush did. It would have been interesting to listen to Libby “sing” after spending a long weekend in the crowbar motel.
I think there have been many impeachable offenses. This action does fit into the presidents bag of happiness.
He is self destructing. I wonder who wants his administration to be done the most…Bush?, or the rest of the planet?
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