I agree with ending the open-ended money and blood pit that is the so-called Iraq “war”. The free ride is over for Bush. Give us a plan or expect us to give you one. The notion that we can spend and die over there until “democracy” shows up is daft. We need more international involvement and less focus on this retarded notion that we are fighting an existential conflict over there. That is bullshit. There is no clear and present danger that the US will be wiped out of existence by terrorists. That’s a Republicans Biblical fantasy.
But, damn it, Dems, what the fuck are you doing putting pork in this fucking bill? As if it isn’t controversial enough to put a timetable on this thing. What brain dead retards thought it was a good time to load up on some pork. That is lame.
lolife 
mic, I think you hit on the key point where we do not see eye to eye.
I do not think we are in a good place right now.
I am not,nor did I mention any speculation on “if the dems handled the last six”. We could be exactly where we are now, who knows.
I do not agree this war is going better. I do not believe freedom is on the march.
I do believe we are being lied to.
I do believe we get a lot of propaganda.
I do believe that we have given up a lot of liberty.
that being said…I’ll be done also.
Michael? stir up another please.
LikeLike
From what I can find, your number 1 porker is Robert Byrd (D). Followed by folks from both parties.
But I don’t agree with your basic premise, that we’re not in a good place, or that we would be in a better place if the Dems were in control over the last 6 years. It’s not knowable. You would have to admit that it’s pure speculation.
Despite a war, despite a the left that worked against the president at every turn, the economy is good, the war is going better (IMO), and freedom is on the march. Who knows how much of a “bad place” we would be in with the Dems leading the way. Again, it’s unknowable.
I firmly believe that if the Dems would have stood behind the president and sent the message to our enemies that this country was united against Islamo-fascism and terrorism, then we would be in a much better place. So I can make the argument that the dems are actually making it worse, not the Repubs. Then again, it’s all just speculation. I know you guys like to think you’re right about everything but as I said, sometimes your wrong. Sometimes I am too.
I’m done with this topic.
LikeLike
http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=reports_pigbook2002Porkpercap
googled, Gov pork. lists by state by year, have not found the D and R list yet….
LikeLike
I would guess there is a “pork.com” somewhere where a person can see all of the earmarks and who got what.
6000 earmarks on a Bush Bill vs. Reagan refusing to sign a Bill with more than 200 was the original comment. It was a comparison of two republican presidents, not a statement against the right.
I think the point of contention is whether or not “both sides are equally bad” or “Grades can be given”.
I have a colleague who is a staunch conservative. Un-wavering on the right. He and I would trade blows on a regular basis during the Clinton administration. Long-story short. Bush Wins, Repblicans have the majority.
six years ago he and I are having lunch and it is agreed that now there are no excuses. The republican agenda can be set in motion and amazing things will happen. “An opportunity to show the country what conservatism is capable of accomplishing. No excuses, nothing holding the republicans back”. (his words not mine)
and here we are.
we argue about this team and that team and who is worse, who’s pork, who’s scum. But the Republicans held the majority for a very long time.
and here we are.
we are not in a good place right now. Grades should be given and individual states should make changes for the better.
But pork is money, pork is building projects and contracts and clout and power. Pork is deals and lobbyists and special interest groups. Pork brings campaign contributions that create adverstising and marketing which en-trenches political figures.
We agree on the line item veto. I would guess a vast majority of Americans would agree. Just like a vast majority of Americans agree on making a tax code that makes sense. We can go on and on about what the majority of Americans agree on and the politicians never give it to us. We get words and promises.
If I were the ultra-right christian voter I would be incredibly angry at this admin. for the lies and promises….
and yes, all of them lie and say whatever needs to be said to get the votes…but here and right now we are talking about Republicans vs. Democrats and the last six years.
we are not in a good place.
LikeLike
And of those 6ooo earmarks, how many of them were for Dem pork projects and how many were for Repub pork projects. Just because a bill was passed with 6000 earmarks does nothing to indict one party or the other. You guys are kidding yourselves. Pork is something both sides use, regardless of party affiliation, to buy off each others votes. Pork spending has skyrocketed in the last 2 decades and both parties are equally guilty.
Statements like “6000 earmarks on a bill” are stupid comments to convince ill-informed people. Did all of those 6000 earmarks go to pet projects for Republicans? No. Saying that the president signed a bill with 6000 earmarks really is neither here nor there. It’s disingenuous if you are trying to indict one party or the other.
LikeLike
IMHO This is not “pass or fail” grades can be given. While the dems certainly don’t get A’s, the right barely passes as a class.
I have a problem with 6000 earmarks on a bill. I have a problem with 3000 earmarks. My guess is 200 earmarks is on the low end, sad as that is.
Is pork bad? it is if it isn’t your pork or your state. There are those that would argue that pork is what drives politics, but that is another discussion altogether.
Both cookies are not equal. The last majority will be tough to beat in spending and fucking up the country. If the Dems show the same performance they will get the same abuse.
We are on the same team. Exactly what we are doing right now makes us “on” the same team. We can yell and shout and pound the table to make points, we can agree, and dissagree and agree to dissagree and walk away Americans…If this were North Korea one of us would turn the others ones in to the Gov. and our families, friends and entire neighborhoods would be sent to the work camps.
There are good people on both sides, that I believe. But as I stated at the top…logical evaluations can be made and “we’re not about to play the blame game” is just a cop-out of reality.
Cream does rise to the top. However usually on the top of that layer of cream is a crust of scum.
LikeLike
First of all, I simply don’t accept your premise that the Republicans are worse with the pork than the Dems. Given the political realities present at any one time, each of the parties seem equally capable of loading up on the pork. You guys are still in the business of defending your team and I’m trying to cast a critical eye on both. Both parties have their good points and their bad and I don’t know what calculus you want to use to solve the equation of which is empirically better, but what ever it is, I’m not buying it.
Secondly, I’ve defended the president on the war, which I still do, I’ve argued with you about AGW, but I have never once defended the fiscal policies of the current administration and the Republican legislature. I’ve never defended any of their pork and I never will. I’m a proponent of a line item veto, regardless of the party of the president.
Both of their cookies have equal amounts of shit in them. I know I can’t convince you of that, and IMHO, that’s part of the problem. Everybody keeps pulling for their shitty teams even though they’re both fucked up, each side believing their team is less fucked up than the other.
Once we realize that we are all on the same team, and we start talking about issues, like pork for example, and we all agree that its bad, no matter who does it, then maybe we can start to move this country forward.
Face it, the right has set themselves up as this “moral” party so every time there is a scandal related to morality, the pages, corruption, etc, they get hammered and rightfully so. If the Dems are going to set themselves up as the watchdogs, the whistle blowers, the “clean government” party, then every time something like this happens, they’re going to get hammered. They deserve to because they look like, and are hypocritical.
LikeLike
Oh please. The record shows, as you know, that the last 6 years has been a shameful record of earmarks and fiscal irresponsibility. You were happy as a clam to jump on the bandwagon bashing the Dems but you have been silent on the sins of the Republicans for 6 freaking years.
I’ll have the cookie with LESS SHIT please.
Here’s hoping for shit-free cookies in the future. I have much more faith in the Left than the Right to make that happen.
But pork sucks no matter whose pork it is.
LikeLike
I could not resist sharing a related analogy presented by a “theatre teacher” friend of mine…it sort of relates to what micadelic is saying…
my friend says this.
Welcome to the bake sale. The cookies on the left have a littel bit of shit baked into them. The cookies on the right have a whole lot of shit baked into them. Now you can’t leave until you purchase and consume at least one of the cookies. Which table has the cookies for you. would you prefer a little bit of shit, or do you want lots and lots of shit?
LikeLike
sometimes casting your lots with the “not so bad guys” is the best choice you’ve got.
I could not agree with you more with “a pox on both their houses”
I understand your analogy of the serial killer but in this instance it is inane. in politics one often must choose the best of the worst.
I’m not sure what you choose when shopping for a serial killer.
and actually to choose the “not so bad” over the very bad does make me proud.
so basically we all agree…cool
LikeLike
You guys really don’t pay attention to anything I have said or written. I say a pox on both their houses. Your lame arguments that “we’re not as bad as they are” is so sad, really. Whatever you guys need to do in order to convince yourselves of your righteousness, I suppose.
Guys, they’re all just different sides of the same coin. I suppose you could argue that serial killer A is not as bad as serial killer B because serial killer A killed less people than serial killer B but guess what? They’re both bad. You want to cast your lots with the “not so bad guys,” go ahead. I’m sure you’re very proud.
LikeLike
Michael what you say is absolutely true. I thought the repbulican party was supposed to be for smaller gov and low spend/ low tax. the opposite has been true…
this bill sucks and the dems are idiots for porking it up…and that makes zero sense because they had to know it was going to be a “media bill”. However this morning I saw a clip of Bush bashing away at the Dems for all the pork in the bill…while it is a nothing in comparison to the rep controlled congress…
It will be vetoed and they don’t have the votes to override the veto.
LikeLike
The Republicans piled an absolute shit ton of pork on every bill they passed and W signed ’em all. So the Top Pork Prize unequivocally goes to the Republicans. So while I am pissed about this, it is par for the course by both parties and I still maintain the Dems are better, not worse, than the Republicans.
LikeLike
Dems should be completely ashamed. they should read on all tv stations who sponsored and added any and all earmarks….
I can not defend this level of stupid.
Historical note I read about a month ago;
I would love to know if this is true.
It was said that Pres. Reagan would not sign anything that had more than 200 earmarks..no matter which party added them.
true statement??
It was then said that W. Bush holds the all time record for signing a bill with more than 6000 ear marks?
true statment?
doesnt’ excuse these morons with the current bill at all…Pelosi and company should be poked in the political eye.
LikeLike
Yes, thank god Nancy Pelosi came in to clean up the house and end all of this waste and “earmarks.”
That is, until they needed to buy a few votes.
Quoth Nancy Pelosi…
Guess what, besides creating this “pork and defeat” bill, they are not disclosing who the earmarks are sponsored by, they’re keeping it secret.
I’m sure glad we have this Democratic Congess now. Problem solved, it’s the end of corruption inWashington.
Right.
LikeLike